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General Discussion: Eigen 2.0 Announcement

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written by: john

EigenD News - Upcoming releases

We've now released EigenD 1.3 into Stable. This has represented over a years
work for the Eigenlabs team and contains some very significant improvements,
including Stage, our networked graphical control panel application, and an
advanced MIDI configuration and control matrix to get the best out of AU's,
VST's and external instruments along with dozens of other new features and
hundreds of bugfixes.

We will be making one more release in the 1.X series of EigenD, 1.4. This will
have no new features but will be a performance and stability release, along
with finally bringing the MacOS and Windows versions fully in line with each
other by completing the Tau and Alpha support on Windows 7, introducing full
headphone support for both. 1.4 will be the last release in the 1.X series of
EigenD.

It's been a long road from 1.0 and I'd like to take the opportunity to thank
all of you who have helped us improve and refine EigenD over the last two years
- your bug reports, suggestions and input have been vital.

From EigenD 2.0 onwards we will be introducing an annual subscription model for
EigenD which will cover all software updates to the base system, which includes
the Stage application. This will be charged at £90/yr or £49 for 6 months
(including VAT at 20%) and covers email suppport as well as software downloads
of the latest version of EigenD.

EigenD 2.0 is scheduled to contain a number of improvements and new features to
the current Eigend along with a considerable number of new bundled instruments
and effects. Subscription is by player, not instrument, so you will not need to
pay more than once if you own multiple models of Eigenharp.

Early subscribers will not have their one year period counted as beginning
until 2.0 enters stable release, but you will need to be a subscriber to gain
access to the early experimental and testing releases.

From 2.0 onwards we will also be introducing a new product, EigenD Pro, for
power users who wish to build and edit their own setups more easily. This
features EigenD, Stage and our new Workbench graphical application that allows
a user to build and customise their own setups quickly and easily. This will be
available by subscription in a similar way to the base EigenD and will cost
£249 a year or £139 for six months (including VAT at 20%). Customers who
purchase an annual EigenD Pro subscription during the period in which it is
classed as 'Experimental' will be able to do so for the discounted price of
£199 for the year.

Forum access will remain open to all registered players at the moment and will
not require a subscription to post. The open source release of EigenD will
continue to track the base system, and from time to time we will probably take
parts of the subscription release and put them in the public domain. The
decision hasn't been made yet but we may make a cut down read only version of
Stage for the GPL release so that there is a reduced functionality, completely
free release available with some Stage functionality. We won't be doing this
before next year though.

Purchasers of Eigenharps will get a one year subscription to EigenD (but not
EigenD Pro) included in the price, and if you bought your Eigenharp within the
last year you will qualify for the remainder of your years paid support as an
EigenD subscriber.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

EigenD 2.0 FAQ:

- Will 1.3 and 1.4 remain free?

Yes they will. You do not have to subscribe if you do not want the new features,
media and capabilities in 2.0.

- How long will they remain supported for?

We will be bugfixing against them for the remainder of 2011, after that they will
remain free but they will no longer be updated.

- What will happen to the open source release?

It will continue to track the subscription release, missing some of the newer
functionality, in the same way it does today. From time to time we will
probably release features from the subscription releases into the public
domain. We remain commited to Open Source and our developer community.

- What happens to my software if I let my subscription lapse?

Nothing. A subscription enables you to download the latest version, once you
have done that it will continue to work even if your subscription subsequently
expires.

- Do you offer any educational discount?

At the moment we do not.

- What are the new features in 2.0?

The feature list for 2.0 is not yet finalised, but to date it includes a large
number of performance enhancements and system changes to enable setups to be
more configurable, several new Agents that enable new methods of performance
(the Strummer to enable guitar like behaviours and Fingerer to enable wind
instrument style fingerings) and a number of new bundled third party AU/VST
instruments and effects. We'll be releasing more information about the new
features during the 2.0 'Experimental' phase.

- What does Workbench do? Is it going to be worth the extra £159?

That's a hard question to answer. It adds three new significant features to the
Eigenharps and EigenD. Firstly it allows one to visually see and inspect the
signal flow, Agents and Ports inside any setup that is 2.X compatible. Secondly
it allows one to edit and change those setups, modifying the signal flow,
changing keyboard layouts by defining new Keygroups and deleting and adding
Agents. Thirdly it allows one to build setups from scratch, as simple as you
want or as rich as your computer hardware will support. If this is something
that is intersting to you then the answer is probably yes. If playing the
instrument using Factory setups is what you want to do, then probably not -
Stage already gives you extensive control over those. If you'd like to build
your own Setups then yes, we think so.

- Can I do any software programming in Workbench?

No, Workbench is configuration and routing tool, it does not have software
development features. If there is an Agent to do what you want to a signal you
can plumb it in Workbench to do just that, but if you want software programming
abilities then the open source release is your best bet - coding an agent is
not that difficult if you know a little Python and C++, and Agents written for
the Open Source release will work with all 2.X software.

- Will setups built for the 1.X series work with 2.X?

No, they will not. It has proven simply too technically difficult to make this
possible. There will be new factory setups for the 2.X series which
will be very similar to the existing setups for an easy playing transition.

- Why have you started charging for your software? It was always free before..

We always intended to charge a subscription for software updates - it is a
significant part of our business model and the continued development of EigenD
is simply not possible without it. We had originally intended that this
subscription would be tied to peoples support contracts and begin when these
expired. Several issues led us to wait on this, mainly that Windows was not
supported across the entire range and we felt (and our users had told us) that
our UI was not good enough. With 1.3 we felt that EigenD had reached a
watershed. It was very stable (being used by a lot of people playing live,
sometimes to audiences in the tens of thousands), had a great and highly
configurable user interface in Stage and with 1.4 was finally completely
equivalent across the MacOS and Windows platforms. It seemed a good point
to make a the jump to a new product. EigenD 2.0 has been in parallel development
to the 1.X series for around 18 months and represents a substantial investment
of time, creativity and resources for us. It is a response to a lot of feedback
from players and users and we hope that you enjoy it.

- What's happening with the IOS version of Stage?

That is part of our Autumn plans, we'll keep you posted.





written by: john

Tue, 4 Oct 2011 12:00:21 +0100 BST

Hi Nick

To clarify, 'at the moment' means exactly that. I am now developing the sad habit of adding qualifiers to every statement about the future. At present we have no plans to make forum access part of a subscription but that may change or get more complex in the future, with public and subscription forums for example - we provide a lot of support responses on the forums, support responses that will in the future be something that people have parted with money for, so we may well have a subscriber restricted section for that at some point. Not right now though.

Before we get into a debate about free access to forums could I make a request? Please do not ask me to commit to making anything that costs money available for free forever, not only am I fiscally unable to make that happen but it doesn't seem very reasonable. I know there are a lot of free resources out there on the Internet at the moment that are messing with peoples ideas about value, but they are all paid for somehow, and we do not do any of these things that other companies do to make that possible, like selling information about you to third parties or stuffing advertising everywhere or, more usually, both. And while I'm running things here, we're not going to start either. To quote Bruce Schneier; 'remember that if you're not paying for something you're not the customer, you're the product'. I'd really like to avoid ever turning Eigenharp players into any kind of product. We're cutting edge musicians, not sheep being led to market, I'd really like to try and keep it that way.

My apologies once again by the way for anyone that gets locked out by mistake - that's an old system that was written two years ago and is waiting replacement. Anyone that experiences this, please just email support and Jessica will sort it out for you as fast as we can.

John

Nick, btw I don't change all my guitar strings that frequently - I have (probably my favourite guitar in fact) a lovely '67 Epiphone Texan that Isabel gave me when we were first married, just a year out of college (which is a long time ago now sadly). She bought it from a friend very reasonably (the only way when one is only one tiny step from being a student I guess) though god only knows what it is worth now. I never change the strings on it and the current set (Ernie Ball Phosphor Bronze's) have been on since 1996. I live in fear of one breaking, I reckon it would take at least six months for the string balance to come back! It has the most fantastic, wooden tone (you can hear it here and here), very suitable for blues and folk picking, it would suit Leo Kottke really well I should think. New strings make it sound terrible.


written by: dhjdhj

Tue, 4 Oct 2011 13:28:27 +0100 BST

I got locked out as well. I thought it was just a mistake until I received the email explaining why I got locked out and I was just so pissed.

I submit respectfully (and not ad hominem!) that Eigenlabs is executing what is now known (at least in the US) as "pulling a Netflix".

('keyman' is making the same argument and I think he's dead right')

There are two great articles going around over here about recent decisions by Netflix and by Bank of America. They make for very good reading for anyone in business trying to grow customers....i.e, everyone!

How to Ruin Your Business in One Move - "Pull a Netflix" and Bank of America Debit Card Fees: It’s Making the Same Mistake as Netflix

For me, and perhaps many others, it's not even about the money --- it's a small amount relative to the investment in the instrument. Personally, I just feel quite alienated.

I get asked all the time about the Eigenharp (I've used it to help promote my own product so it gets in front of quite a few well known artists) and I even caused a couple of sales in the last year but these days, I would not be inclined to tell anyone they should get one and in fact if I was asked, I'd be actively suggesting not to buy one.

In my (perhaps not so humble) opinion the company should be encouraging early adopters to spread the word and should be excited about getting tech users to build stuff that would benefit existing AND POTENTIAL customers...not alienating them.

I had hoped to invest quite a bit of my time trying to build an alternative software base for the Eigenharp....not to compete with EigenD, I would have just made it available for anyone. However, it is too hard to wade through the huge open source code just to figure out the basic information needed for low level communication.

By all means, feel free to charge new customers whatever you want, after making it clear up front so that potential customers can make an informed decision. Nothing wrong with that. But a lot of people who bought the instrument in the early days (including me) saw the software as a "helper" tool to make the instrument work --- and certainly not something that would someday require continuous payment to stay current.

At this point I have no idea whether I will stick around....I'm too angry right now to make a rational decision.

I do however apologise if I have inadvertently offended anyone with my comments. That is not my intent.

Anyhow, as Forrest Gump often commented, "That is all I have to say about this"


written by: john

Tue, 4 Oct 2011 15:05:09 +0100 BST

Dear David

I have to ask you what business model you would propose that would pay for ongoing software development?

Just to give you the background financials so that you can think about it, Eigenharp sales themselves are not sufficient to contribute to this - in order for that to be the case they would need to be considerably more expensive (ie, more than double the price) which I am sure you would agree would damage the future prospects of the instrument and be in no-ones interest. Either that or they would need to sell in roughly ten to twenty times the current volumes.

The revenue from instrument sales does not in fact contribute anything to the running costs of the development team, it basically pays for the manufacturing operation (which is now very, very lean) and nothing else and this is unlikely to change in the next couple of years in my opinion - the economy is toast and adventurous new instruments are not on anyone's priority list when the mortgage has to be paid. To make this figure more real for you I can tell you that when we sold you your Alpha we made around $200 of margin and that is before any kind of support or marketing costs are considered. We do better now on Alpha's (due to a lot of work on supply chain improvements mainly), but everyone who buys one gets a true bargain - they are extremely high quality instruments made with a lot of expensive materials and the high price is not a reflection of profit, it is a reflection of the cost of the parts and labour that goes into them.

If one factors out the profit that we make for instrument sales then I truly do not know quite how you imagine ongoing improvement and development of software might be funded (despite some interesting suggestions on this forum, I seriously doubt they'd raise the several hundred thousand pounds a year the dev team costs to run). I have been writing large cheques for the last few years to pay for this, but there are limits and I simply cannot continue to do that for much longer. If the community of Eigenharp players do not wish to contribute to the cost of continuing to develop and maintain the software then it will simply cease to be developed by us. There won't be any 'us', everyone will have to go and get other jobs.

I am not in favour of this. Are you?

John


written by: NothanUmber

Tue, 4 Oct 2011 19:04:23 +0100 BST

Perhaps it would help to get a broader user base by supporting additional controllers like Continuum and normal midi keyboards and being able to use EigenD as a AU/VST subhost so users outside the Eigenharp world could benefit from the possibilities of the EigenD platform to some degree? That way we would get some additional experienced and dedicated people on board (specifically in the case of Continuum&Co) and it could be THE advertisement for the Eigenharp in the keyboard world as this is the instrument that uses EigenD to it's full extend.
This could lead into two directions that might possibly be the most promising approaches in the long run: making EigenD a software product in it's own right (so compared to device runtime other rules apply) and getting hardware sales up so software costs become a minor factor. (It's no coincidence that the mantra "software costs nothing" comes from the embedded software world. And four developers is by no means an exceptionally big team when it comes to firmware and runtime development.)

Btw. when we speak about getting instrument sales up... wasn't there a Dream Theater CD with prominent usage of an Alpha in the pipeline? :)

Greetings,
NothanUmber


written by: john

Tue, 4 Oct 2011 19:38:51 +0100 BST

That is a great suggestion and has certainly formed part of out thinking - the desire to make OSC the main transport protocol between Agents is the enabling step we need to take to make this happen - OSC in and out of EigenD then becomes the norm at every level. This isn't actually that big a deal for us, we already have a network protocol, its really more the work to get the schema right so that we don't hang ourselves in the process. After we get 2.0 into Stable that's probably going to be the big thing for 2.1. Even David (dhjdhj) will get his wish then, he'll be able to make a skeleton EigenD setup that just exports the whole keyboard as one big OSC server and from that into Max if he wishes.

John


written by: ChrisPenner

Tue, 4 Oct 2011 19:53:02 +0100 BST

I want to clarify some things because I think I came across as a little negative earlier. I want to thank Eigenlabs so much for their patience with me and my laptop's apparent lack of co-operation with everything you guys have programmed. I apologize if some of my remarks and messages are interpreted as rude or as assuming that something is their fault when it is indeed hardware failure on my part, but it is understandably frustrating for me to have these problems. Eigenlabs has been very good to me and I appreciate the care you take in customer support, don't stop the good work, I anticipate being a customer for a long while.

Upon hearing more clearly about the financial situation it really is easier to understand.

I'm very grateful that this new model only requires a subscription to download the new software, and not to continue using it, this is very important to me. Perhaps as an act of loyalty to early adopters you could give us the one year of paid subscription that new purchasers will have (meaning 1 year of subscription from the release of 2.0 and the introduction of the new model). I very much want to support Eigenlabs as much as they support me, because if the company goes under all of us will just be people with expensive hunks of plastic.

Thanks for taking care with your responses and addressing all of our concerns.
Sincerely,
Chris


written by: barnone

Tue, 4 Oct 2011 20:38:32 +0100 BST

I certainly want to support you guys and the money is actually not the issue for me. I'm willing to continue to invest in you guys but can we stop boiling the ocean somehow?

Some thoughts to take with a grain of salt as always.

I think you guys need to be more focused on what is really important to the customer. I don't think you know what that is actually. I don't know what that is either. You need to find out. You probably need to make some tough decisions and lose some things and focus on what is important.

Other devices and high bandwidth devices exist without a full host like EigenD. It's a cool vision but I'd rather see sustainability. Simplicity can be powerful.

If there was the driver and infrastructure of communication without EigenD, you could license the key technology and basic driver / comm stack to other manufacturers and another avenue of growth.

Many performers do not want a standalone instrument that you hang around your neck, but one that exists on a table with other devices. Maybe eigenlabs is not the right company to produce this form-factor.

All the high budget marketing in the beginning did not translate to sales, just hype. The high budget marketing comes after crossing the chasm and that wasn't going to happen with hype.

There is a process for software market research I have seen used to great effect in developing the right product for your customer base. You also have to find out who your customer base is. Are they all early-adopters? How do you start getting laggards to come on, etc...

Describe a list of features and products.
Put a token cost next to each one.
Tell your users they have 100 tokens to spend which will only get them a few features.
Allow your users to buy more tokens for a premium tier like you have proposed. For example, such and such a yearly cost will get you 100 more tokens to spend.

This process can be done by sampling a small random cross section of users and engaging them this way. Actually call them and allow them to massage the features but not control the cost.

Listening to customers is actually not as powerful as the above exercise. In fact, don't listen to us. Find out what we value and do the right thing and ignore what we say to do.

Don't work on anything that is not directly tied to customer value. Value may not be what you think it is. Value could be a restricted product that is simple with fewer features.

Product perception, product loyalty and user-base growth are all tied up in emotions for the consumer especially when the product is cutting edge like the eigenharp. Big emotions are on the side of eigenlabs too. You guys are emotionally attached to parts of this system.

My biggest concerns at the moment are related to perspective new users rather than existing users. If there is a perception that eigenlabs is non sustainable and that the entry level pico is going to be an ongoing cost, I think there will be few new users. I know you've tried to address this. Seems like it will need some refinement though.

Engage each strata of the user base to become involved even if the task is small. This is something I've learned from sailing actually. Give everyone a job even if it is simply a made up job like counting laps around the course.

Ask for Open Source contributions from the programmers. If there is something that eigenlabs cannot do but that is important for the product. Ask us to get involved. Maybe there is a project orthogonal enough that some of us could actually get it done. Sharing of patches for example. Don't assume that it will be too much to support us. If there is a goal, it might actually work.

I have a very specific question about Workbench. It seems like a very expensive effort. It is tied to supposedly PRO users wanting to create their own configurations.

The question is: How does workbench benefit the average non-programmer user? I'm pretty sure it will not be so easy to use that anyone can get along with it. It will still be for a small subset of power users. Can these workbench setups be shared easily with the normal user that does not own workbench? Can parts of setups be reused like a template? For example, here's a setup for strumming, let me as an average user take that as a template for part of a new setup and let me use another template for some other piece of my setup. As an average user that does not own workbench, can I benefit from the work of the power users that have workbench?

What was done with sharing in Stage was step in the right direction.

This internal OSC communication stuff sounds like Ocean boiling. I hope it is not.

Are you guys goldplating certain features? Things like belcanto point to this. Is all this flexibility preventing you from focusing on what is important? I don't know, I'm asking.

I hope this doesn't sound to preachy, just hopefully some positive ideas to think about.




written by: barnone

Tue, 4 Oct 2011 22:16:19 +0100 BST

Sorry, that was a bit of an overshare, but felt good. Too late to edit, so I already said to take with a grain of salt. Thinking out loud here.

The reality is that eigenD already has all the features I need to be productive making music. Stage was the piece that made this so actually.

The barrier is me. I need to practice more.

So you guys should do what is best for the long term health of the company and product and ignore us early adopters. ;)


written by: carvingCode

Wed, 5 Oct 2011 02:57:21 +0100 BST

I played my Pico for a couple hours tonight. What fun! (Customer Support: Don't take this that my reported issues are solved, please.)

My hope is that John, and whoever else is making decisions for Eigenlabs sees what the rest of us do: a very cool instrument with many possibilities, yet many problems to overcome. I believe they can be overcome.

As others have pointed out, it seems that Eigenlabs does not really care for the early adopters: those of us who bought within the first year or so, and helped test the hardware and software. I mean... no gratitude has been shown whatsoever. Instead, we're lumped in with the same software maintenance plans as everyone.

What would have been received well by all (I believe) is this:

Early adopters: 50% off software plan prices for 2 years in gratitude for all you have done to help build the Eigenharp. Thank you! No restrictions on forum or email support EVER - We are here for you!

This would be easily manageable and would, probably, satisfy many of our concerns. Instead, we get a 'fork you very much - pay up or shut up' message and more of the 'our company is teetering on the brink of destruction' messages.

What's the message Eigenlabs is giving us?


Take care.

Randy


written by: barnone

Wed, 5 Oct 2011 03:44:20 +0100 BST

I don't know Randy.

I'm really glad we are getting a message about the business reality here of the investment in the software. It's so much better than not talking about it. In fact I much prefer it.

John has invested much in this product and it wouldn't even be here without that investment. My alpha probably costs as much as a ferrari if we think about the economics of it.

Also, being an early adopter is just that. You are signing up for some teething pain. I don't think eigenlabs owes us anything. And honestly the latest software is quite mature.

This is a very capable instrument and has been since the beginning even with the early software.

The new software is very good. I'm making the case that maybe it's too deep and to trim down the vision and focus more on the barriers and drop some of the universal architecture vision which is too big to maintain.

Being able to build the source for me is a huge deal. Thank you for that.

I want eigenlabs to be successful. How can this happen?

I don't know if I've said it before but it's a monumental achievement to get to this point.

The Alpha especially is a work of art and an example of craftsmanship that you rarely see anymore + high tech construction that you never see married so beautifully with an amazing platform.

So many risks were taken that would never have happened without John's vision and frankly financial backing.

It takes real dedication to learn a real instrument. I'm not sure the early adopters are the ones that will really make this instrument sing to its full potential although we have an important part to play.








written by: Lowdene

Wed, 5 Oct 2011 12:04:45 +0100 BST

John

I think I'm thread stealing here, but yes the tone sounded very nice. What a lovely story! I've only been able to justify the number of guitars I have by the fact one my sons plays them all too (and the 'harps). I actually do think if you keep strings on long enough the tone starts improving again - as long as the guitar is of high enough quality.

I'm pretty much OK about the subscription idea (but please don't cut me off until you have the mechanism for me to subscribe!!) and I like the idea of the different tiers, though it's not clear to me what happens if you want to move between tiers or stop / start your subscription. I understand your unwillingness to be 'held to ransom' over previous remarks, but I think the statement on the forum access is a bit too guarded. 'At the moment' means no more than it is true at the instant you speak! I can see that you have become a victim of your own desire to communicate as openly as possible in the past with the user group and personally I think your openness is something we should applaud rather than use as evidence of supposed 'bad faith'.

Nick


written by: mikemilton

Wed, 5 Oct 2011 13:16:17 +0100 BST

Humbly, I think early adoption has its own rewards and we have had them. However, I'd suggest that appropriate price increases (HW/SW), sufficient to make the entire business (at least) compensatory, is called for and this ought to make the early adopters quite happy.

This announcement is most welcome (to me at least) although I fear the pricing is too modest.

As an aside, I happen to belong to Canon Professional Services (CPS) which costs more than this for an annual 'subscription'. In return, I get preferred response (almost as good as Eigenlabs, but not quite), loaner equipment if I need it, fixed (but not cheap) expedited repair, and a bit of (nice) bling. I do not get any product at all. There are a whole lot of CPS members and a lot of people who want to be but don't get accepted. It isn't cheap, but I'm sure it isn't a profit center for Canon either. In addition to the announced SW products, I'd be quite happy to see a priced service (much like CPS) as well.


m


written by: dhjdhj

Wed, 5 Oct 2011 16:13:04 +0100 BST

(This response is intended to be constructive criticism, it is not to be interpreted as whining!)

If I put on my business hat, I can tell you that I sympathize one hundred percent with the problem and there's no question that a solution needs to be found. Been there myself several times in the past!

But I'm not part of your business. So, if I put on a customer's hat, then I refer you to the key statement that came out of the Netflix debacle and has been repeated in many articles, including the two I referenced yesterday

but in the end, customers don't care about Netflix's internal business problems


When I originally bought the Alpha, I just wanted to PLAY it. It was clear from what I had read that it would be an incredibly expressive controller, something I've wanted for 30 years or so (and I've tried a lot of other controllers over theyears)

Instead, I found myself struggling with a bizarre environment that I could barely understand. Never in my life had I encountered a system where I couldn't even figure out how to turn it on and play one note without tremendous effort.

Then I discovered that the thing was essentially "Eigen-Centric", meaning that I couldn't think of it as something I could integrate into my already running environment but instead I would have to adjust my entire working environment to fit into the "Eigen-way" of doing things. I could not see any benefit to going down that road. I couldn't see (and still don't see) how agents and belcanto could offer anything that couldn't already be done with existing and very mature/comprehensive tools already out there (e.g, MaxMSP for configuration/control/performance, Ableton Live for interactive techno, MainStage for integration/performance, many other such things)

After a year and a half (I think), I still don't have an instrument that I can just PLAY. I'm not (and have never been) in a position (timewise) to make the intellectual investment that turns out to be required if I were to attempt to integrate the Alpha into my environment.

Now I am being asked to pay more money (a) just to be able to communicate with other users (b) to make a bet that MAYBE I'll get something that will do what should have been possible (for endusers) from the beginning. And I'm expected to feel good about it! Sorry, but I don't! And THAT should count. Netflix and BoA didn't think it counted and they are in deep doo-doo because of it.


Now, to go back to the business model.

I have several software products for which I get free updates forever. That happened because I bought in early when the companies were getting off the ground and were trying to build their reputation. Now, both of those companies have subsequently started charging for updates, which is not at all surprising because of course there's a cost to development. However, all their early adopters continue to get free updates. Now, even though the subscription costs were not that high, the result is that they created a bunch of "ambassadors" who continue to recommend their products and they are able to GROW their customer base, as opposed to just trying to milk the ones they already got. New customers are clearly aware of the policies and so come in informed.

Frankly, that is one piece that should have been in your business model under the heading "How our customers can help us grow". Indeed, I was on a long call yesterday with a very well known musician and we got to talking about the Eigenharp (which he had not heard of) and I sent him some videos. Who knows?

Now, obviously hindsight is easy. However, a year and a half ago on these forums I proposed the notion of making the Eigenharp specifically be a controller that would integrate directly with apps like MainStage, Ableton, MainStage, etc.

I continue to think there's tremendous potential for the Eigenharp itself (otherwise I just wouldn't bother at all, and certainly wouldn't take the time to participate in this forum). I think there are quite a few people who bought the Eigenharp who are also developers who would love to help if it was feasible and indeed I think there is some money to be made by a few people, even though it's clearly a niche market.

I think your growth market is the instrument itself, NOT the software. I think you should be doing everything you can to help other people develop infrastructure, 3rd party tools and so on.


For my own selfish reasons, I really wish someone at your place would take a little time to create (or make public) a trivial app that just shows how to communicate with the eigenharp software through USB. That will open the doors for people like me (who have been involved with developing computer tools for years) to build on top of the hardware, perhaps taking it in new directions that can amplify the product. But it doesn't look like that's going to happen



written by: keyman

Wed, 5 Oct 2011 16:47:53 +0100 BST

As I don't understand this annoyance, and sort of disbelieve towards Eigenlabs, and English is not my mother language (with all the difficulties that arrive from writing it) and I'm sure John doesn't need defense on his ideas and "way of doing things" ( we "see" John doubling his every efforts on the Forum, did even go to one of the seminars, and now recently stop by at he Google+ Eigenharp Clubhouse hangouts, always helpful and listening to every single issue regarding the "Eigen world" )

I'm with Nick-(Lowdene) and also applaud , and feel privileged of the contact. 'm grateful for how "things" are right now , and the good prospects for the future. (don't find this openness anywhere else... could go on forever, Yamaha-Korg-Clavia, Roland.....

I propose, (for a change) we also remember to

Commemorate / Celebrate,

...from what It seems October saw he launch of the Eigenharp instruments....

keyman


written by: GoneCaving

Wed, 5 Oct 2011 16:53:39 +0100 BST

Back to the need for an Easter Egg that plays "Happy Birthday" cued from a talker ;-)


written by: djogon

Wed, 5 Oct 2011 17:02:09 +0100 BST

Think about the early adopters as really your main marketing channel. I have personally learned about Eigenharp from David (dhjdhj) and subsequently purchased a Pico. Since then - I have pointed several musicians to your website as well.

Alienating us and basically penalizing us for being early adopters could not possibly be good for your business.

Now - back to the actual issue ...

I am confused what to think of Eigenlabs at this point. Are you a software company or a music instrument company? I don't think I have ever heard of a hardware manufacturer charging for "drivers". The software you are going to charge for is basically a "driver".
To get most out of your instrument - one has to subscribe to your software updates.

Your primary focus and strength should really be in making the instrument itself, possibly tweaking and improving the basic drivers, but other than that - you should leave the rest to your community of users/developers.

I would like to ask you to think a bit more about this and the ways to improve your business without this radical step.

If I was in your shoes - I would first try to find a way to improve the manufacturing process and reduce the price of Tau.

There are two major issue with your /business model today:

1) Price tag.
2) Eigen D software.

If you manage to reduce the price and allow people to use Eigenharp without Eigen D (it's ok to offer it to people who want it and charge for it) - I think you would do much better.

My two cents.


written by: mikemilton

Wed, 5 Oct 2011 17:56:00 +0100 BST

@djogon - With respect, I dont see any issues at this point except sustainability and I see movement in that direction.

The system works (wonderfully, without peer). Once upon a time we discussed how we would know we were 'there'. With 1.3 (and certainly 1.4) we clearly are.

This is a time of positive departure in future facing directions and it is clear that is happening as we speak.

I'm not arguing against (or belittling) the contribution the community and third parties might make but I'm firmly confident that they would be as likely to have got us here as it was to hope for Shakespeare from infinate monkeys typing.


written by: NothanUmber

Wed, 5 Oct 2011 20:50:05 +0100 BST

Hopefully something like the subscription concept works out.
If for some reason the income does not reach the necessary levels there could be another option (based on the assumption that hardware at least pays for itself and is somewhat profitable even with low production lots so it makes sense to offer Eigenharps as long as there is any interest at all and one can wait relaxed for better times.)

At some point when we will have been able to play with Workbench a little and found out which setups make most sense for which Eigenharps, which sounds are appealing for a majority and EigenD is considered "good enough for many things" (e.g. after 2.1 with OSC support) one very interesting option could be to create an "EigenstationD": Essentially a Basestation that runs EigenD (e.g. under Linux) from flash. This Eigenstation could offer audio out, midi, ethernet (=OSC) and perhaps VC outputs. So you don't necessarily need a standard computer, people don't cry out if they don't get new software updates every weekend (as they are used not to apply firmware updates to their TVs also) and those who want to connect midi triggered instruments, hosts or OSC hardware/software instead of using the internal sounds can do just that without having to care about EigenD at all which invisibly and smoothly performs it's dutys on the Eigenstation.
That could tremendously cut down ongoing development costs and help regarding getting things rock stable as development could concentrate on one platform and plugins (which are the source of a lot of trouble) wouldn't be directly have to be hosted inside EigenD anymore. (To compensate for that it should be ensured that there are sufficient agents to use Workbench remotely as a modular synth environment for the geeks who search "their" sound).
Additionally the open source release with full hosting capability could coexist so the minimal work to do from the community's side would be adaptions for new operating systems, plugin standards and plugin specific workarounds to come to ensure ongoing Mac&Windows&plugin compatibility.

Then it would be a plug and play experience for everybody who does not want to "fiddle around" and the geeks could still reconfigure existing agents with Workbench remotely (or perhaps even load their self written agents onto the Eigenstation if they desire to do so - there could be a concept that allows to reset to factory settings in any case e.g. via a read only flash section that contains a backup of the initial firmware).
Would also help to get into circles where "performing with a notebook" does still not have a good reputation.

So the future of the great instrument Eigenharp would not be so tightly be coupled with EigenD having success to establish itself as a commercial product in it's own right.

But now let's hope first that the current plan works and features can be added to EigenD for the years to come - which would not rule out an "Eigenstation" which could nonetheless be interesting for a number of customers who priorize stability and "care free systems" with a set of versatilely usable and defined sounds over bleeding edge CPU performance and state of the art synthesizer plugins.

Greetings,
NothanUmber

P.S.: Perhaps Workbench+Stage could even be adapted to run on the Eigenstation itself as a web app (or if that is not viable anymore via X or VNC or whatever) so if money becomes an issue it can be considered "done" at some point even if new potentially incompatible OSes are introduced on the desktop side, or thin clients/tablets/whatever-things start to dominate.

P.P.S.: As an in between step to compiling native agents for the Eigenstation (or also EigenD on PC/Mac) it could already be sufficient to have a generic, Python programmable agent within Workbench for many projects - should be sufficient for many logic controller things as long as data amount and/or latency requirements are not too demanding)


written by: NothanUmber

Wed, 5 Oct 2011 20:59:14 +0100 BST

P.P.P.S.: To reach a broader audience: Give that Eigenstation thing a midi in and you have one of the most capable modular digital standalone synths that one could think of. A tweaker's and DIY-instrument builder's dream and also very interesting for keyboarders if the standard sounds are good and/or a sound designer community emerges that creates interesting downloadable patches for all owners.


written by: dhjdhj

Wed, 5 Oct 2011 21:42:12 +0100 BST

I have a Korg Oasys --- I got new updates for years (with no extra fees) until they (very recently) discontinued it and put out the Kronos. There were addons you could buy (extra synth models) if you wanted. When they discontinued the Oasys, they made all those addons available free to existing Oasys owners.

As a result, Oasys customers who were at first a little miffed about the end of the Oasys ended up feeling better, and are telling other interested individuals to check out the Kronos.

It's not about "openess", it's about making your customers really happy so that they WANT to be loyal.

keyman said:
(don't find this openness anywhere else... could go on forever, Yamaha-Korg-Clavia, Roland.....


keyman



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