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Ok, found explanations for some of the effects:
* My preset did not work because it's name was not a Belcanto word and negative offsets don't seem to be possible in the finger section. (Currently you don't get a syntax error message for neither, it just doesn't work)
* the effect that only finger 1,1 produces a sound by itself seems to be related to audio units (tested with Pianoteq). With the saw oscillator it worked
* couldn't find explanations for the rest of the above questions yet

Here two presets that don't use any features that didn't work for me (alternative 2 is probably better because you can use the thumb hooks with it)

[alternative 1]
finger 1 = open * +37.0
finger 2 = 2,7 * +49.0
finger 3 = 2,7 2,8 * +61.0
finger 4 = 2,7 2,8 2,9 * +73.0
finger 5 = 2,9 * +25.0
finger 6 = 2,9 2,8 * +13.0
finger 7 = 2,9 2,7 * +1.0

modifier 1 = 2,6 * +1.0

polyphony 1 = 1,1 * +0.0
polyphony 2 = 1,2 * +1.0
polyphony 3 = 1,3 * +2.0
polyphony 4 = 1,4 * +3.0
polyphony 5 = 2,1 * +4.0
polyphony 6 = 2,2 * +5.0
polyphony 7 = 2,3 * +6.0
polyphony 8 = 2,4 * +7.0
polyphony 9 = 1,5 * +8.0
polyphony 10 = 1,6 * +9.0
polyphony 11 = 1,7 * +10.0
polyphony 12 = 1,8 * +11.0
polyphony 13 = 2,5 * +12.0

[alternative 2]
finger 1 = open * +49.0
finger 2 = 2,7 * +57.0
finger 3 = 2,8 * +65.0
finger 4 = 2,9 * +73.0
finger 5 = 2,7 2,8 * +81.0
finger 6 = 2,8 2,9 * +89.0
finger 7 = 2,7 2,8 2,9 * +97.0
finger 8 = 1,7 * +41.0
finger 9 = 1,8 * +33.0
finger 10 = 1,9 * +25.0
finger 11 = 1,7 1,8 * +17.0
finger 12 = 1,8 1,9 * +9.0
finger 13 = 1,7 1,8 1,9 * +1

modifier 1 = 2,6 * +1.0
modifier 2 = 1,6 * -1.0

polyphony 1 = 1,1 * +0.0
polyphony 2 = 1,2 * +1.0
polyphony 3 = 1,3 * +2.0
polyphony 4 = 1,4 * +3.0
polyphony 5 = 2,1 * +4.0
polyphony 6 = 2,2 * +5.0
polyphony 7 = 2,3 * +6.0
polyphony 8 = 2,4 * +7.0

More experiments. I've got a more complete version of one of the other WX5 finger modes, Sax B, which is the one I've played for 8 or so years now:

[electric sax]
finger 11 = open * +7.0 ; C#
finger 1 = 1,1 * +6.0 ; B
finger 2 = 1,1 1,2 * +5.0 ; A
finger 3 = 1,1 1,2 1,3 * +4.0 ; G
finger 4 = 1,1 1,2 1,3 2,5 * +2.5 ; F nat
finger 5 = 1,1 1,2 1,3 2,5 2,6 * +2.0 ; E
finger 6 = 1,1 1,2 1,3 2,5 2,6 2,7 * +1.0 ; Root Note of scale (D by default on WX)
finger 7 = 1,1 1,2 1,3 2,7 * +3.0 ; F#
finger 8 = 1,1 1,2 1,3 2,6 * +3.0 ; Alternate F#
finger 9 = 2,5 2,6 2,7 * +8.0 ; Top D
finger 10 = 2,5 2,6 * +9.0 ; Top E
finger 12 = 2,6 * +10.0 ; Various Top F#s
finger 13 = 2,7 * +10.0 ; ..
finger 14 = 1,3 2,6 * +10.0 ; ..
finger 15 = 1,3 2,7 * +10.0 ; ..
finger 16 = 1,3 2,5 * +9.5 ; Top F nat
finger 17 = 2,5 * +9.5 ; Top F nat
finger 18 = 1,3 * +11.0 ; Top G
finger 19 = 1,3 2,5 2,6 * +9.0 ; Top E with left ring finger down
finger 20 = 1,1 1,2 1,3 2,6 2,7 * +0.5 ; Eb
finger 21 = 2,6 2,7 * +8.5 ; Top Eb
finger 22 = 1,3 2,6 2,7 * +8.5 ; Top Eb
finger 23 = 1,2 * +6.5 ; C nat
finger 24 = 1,1 1,2 1,3 2,5 2,6 2,7 2,8 * 0.0 ; <-- This doesn't work!!!

My experiment hit the buffers on the last line as you can see. The 'key offsets' (which confused me initially as aI thought they were scale offsets, ie that the 'Root note' of say a major scale is 0.0, but in fact it is 1.0, i.e the first key). It seems that zero and negative key numbers don't work at all, which means that for the WX and presumably the saxophone, you can't number the root note (D on the WX as it's concert pitch by default, on an Alto sax it's a B but sax players call it a D nonetheless since they're strange and awkward :P) as +1.0 without sacrificing all the notes _below_ that note usually played with little finger keys. The workaround, which I think John has used in the factory Sax A emulation, is to take the lowest note playable without modifiers or octave shifts, and set that as +1.0, meaning you have to then renumber everything else and also transpose the scaler to put D in the right place.


For the most part the triggering works OK, but I sometimes get stuck keys where the note carroes on after I stop blowing, or for a while it will stop responding and get stuck on one note, until you re-trigger the breath pipe. Need to work out how to reproduce these conditions.

Yep :) Not today anymore though from my side, getting late now.

Will have to try the WX5 mode tomorrow!

Regarding my examples above: They only work properly with an audio unit atm., so you don't hear the pattern keys themselves, only the polyphonic modifiers should be audible (otherwise it's like a bagpipe with bordun keys ;) )

Hi 0beron, NothanUmber

Great that you're exploring this so quickly! I am looking forward to hearing the first hornpipe played with the Fingerer.

Couple of answers:

1 - 0beron - Fingerer ignores key combinations that are not listed in the fingering, and should do so completely. If you want a valid fingering, you have to define it explicitly. This is long winded when defining the fingering, but after a lot of thought seemed the best approach as it's consistent. The act of defining fingerings is not one I expect to happen a lot, so it hasn't been optimised for speed or convenience. I'd rather work on making the functionality better as I suspect that once we have some canonical fingerings these will be what people mostly stick with.

2 - I think negative key offsets should work. Key coordinate is a floating point number these days and I'm not sure why this doesn't work - I'll try and have a look over the next couple of days. The output is actually a key and as you've noticed we count from 1 not zero (to help musicians, who are not programmers, to understand it). This gets every programmer at least once, welcome to the club. Non programmers have the opposite response, amusingly. I'll add to the 'User Fingerings' guide on the wiki to make this plainer, that page is just a stub for now. I'll also add a clear note to name your fingerings with a valid Belcanto word. Sorry you (NothanUmber) didn't get a syntax error with that, I see if its easy to make one happen.

3 - NothanUmber, I'm not sure why your 'alternative 1' and 'alternative 2' fingerings don't work - they look like they ought to do something. They do look a bit bit weird (but that's no surprise, I figured you'd go straight out and break it in an interesting way) as it looks as if you're using the main pattern as an offset then attempting to use the polyphony modifiers as the main playing keys. The thing to bear in mind is that the main note is always created from the fingering pattern. Without a main note, there is nothing for the modifiers, additions and polyphony to work from, and the main note is what drives all those things. With those fingerings you're going to end up with a constant drone note which may well not be what you are looking for - is that what you had in mind?

The sequence to determine which notes are made (roughly speaking) works like this:

- match largest fingering with simple 'which keys are above threshold' comparison
- make a list of all valid subfingerings for this
- evaluate how well keyed each fingering is
- calculate an appropriate base note from the weightings of each target key offset using a weighted mean where each fingering masks the one below it depending upon how well keyed it is - fully keyed suppresses all subfingerings completely.

Once this base note is evaluated, the same process is applied to additions, which are then added to that note. If its all valid it goes out as a new output key. The modifiers are calculated separately as they drive a different input on the Scaler - it's one that is in time expected to vary by scale but is currently always a semitone (don't expect this to stay that way, it's a reasonable assumption for diatonic scales, but not for a pentatonic for example). There is a profound difference between modifiers and additions - one will end up being scale increments, the other something else entirely, depending on the scale definition in the future. I'd like to invite suggestions for this btw, for the scales that already exist.

After that the polyphonic notes are added as offsets of that final value. I have a vague feeling, now I'm writing this, that the modifier stream may not be shipped out with those poly notes, which would be a bug as the poly notes would go out of tune from the base note when it was used in that case as rhe scaler wouldn't know to apply it to them. Additions would still be fine, but I note that you (NothanUmber) don't seem to have used any of those in your fingerings (not sure why). I'll have a look and get back to you on that.

On the stuck notes thing, I'm interested if you keep getting trouble with this. That's one of the hairier parts of Fingerer (the creation and stopping of notes) and it's quite possible there's a bug in there, it wouldn't be the first one. I would say though that I had this effect a bit and it came from having a slightly blocked breath pipe (or seemed to) - when I cleared it it went away. This is why I added the 'breath threshold', to make that easier to deal with, although I'm not sure yet how good an idea that is. Please let me know if you can find a consistent way to reproduce this, and if possible if it is related to a mildy stuck breath pipe. Please feel free to use the bug reporter, if you're reasonably certain it is a bug..


John

John... ia couple of things

- it may be desirable, at times, to have the polyphonic notes be made 'sticky' (eg: to hold a chord while playing a melody) could this be some kind of modifier? Perhaps it might be hels via a pressure or yaw threshold? One (little used) feature of the wx is a note hold, this would essentially be a chord hold and easy to use.

- it might be nice to add multiple offsets to polyphony notes so one could make chord buttons (and reduce the keys / fingers in play at any given time.

Hi Mike

The multiple poly notes is quite possible and relatively straightforward providing one is happy not to have independent pressure control for each note. I'll see if I can get that in at some point, it's a nice idea with no downsides I can see.

The 'sticky chords' thing is rather more difficult and I'm not entirely sure that the Fingerer Agent would be the right place for that, I'll have a think and a chat with Jim about it. It would be quite fun for noodling about, making it easier to vamp along to yourself, although I suspect the same result could be gained using a pair of Fingerers and a sustain pedal with the added advantage one could have two separate sounds in play.

Great ideas thanks, keep 'em coming..

John

@John, I understand your concerns with taking breath out of the equation in the case that the normal pattern keys produce a base note (as this would probably mean you'd have to introduce a latency for key combination detection).
At least in combination with the "silent pattern keys" it would be very nice (and probably no problem?) if breath could be ommitted as the sound is nonetheless only generated by the polyphonic keys - which can act as trigger then. This would allow for polyphonic, non-breath key-instrument oriented sounds (where having to use breath as activation may feel unnatural)

My experiments with the fingerer and the Pico won't involve the breath pipe, Im using the pressure of the last 4 keys on the Pico to drive 4 different fingerer agents. Or rather thats the plan, got delayed when trying this last night as I've been using workbench for less than a week, and it took me hours of messing around to discover how to isolate the pressure signal from a single specific key. There is some potential here, hope to have unlocked it within the next 8 hours or so.

Mind you even when I was using the fingerer as intended with the breath pipe, I have a problem with a stuck note, which is very hard to unstick. Not sure if this is the way I wired things up or because Im using the fingerer with midi output, but something weird seems to be happening.

@Stehe Elbows: are you trying to connect the pressure output of your keyboard/keygroup(s) to the breath in of the fingerer(s)? Will be interesting whether you get this running, I didn't succeed in a first attempt (didn't hear anything).

Here another perhaps interesting preset to play with (it has a bug - starting from finger 63 or so the pitch is not increasing anymore - is there a maximum transpose factor hardcoded in the fingerer?
(No, my naming scheme is not overly creative - perhaps we'll come up with meaningful names for the presets that prove to be useful later on)

[alternative 3]
finger 1 = 1,1 * +1.0
finger 2 = 1,2 * +2.0
finger 3 = 1,3 * +3.0
finger 4 = 1,4 * +4.0
finger 5 = 2,1 * +5.0
finger 6 = 2,2 * +6.0
finger 7 = 2,3 * +7.0
finger 8 = 2,4 * +8.0
finger 9 = 1,5 * +9.0
finger 10 = 1,6 * +10.0
finger 11 = 1,7 * +11.0
finger 12 = 1,8 * +12.0
finger 13 = 1,9 * +13.0 ; alternative fingering
finger 14 = 2,5 * +13.0 ; alternative fingering
finger 15 = 2,6 * +14.0 ; alternative fingering
finger 16 = 2,7 * +15.0 ; alternative fingering
finger 17 = 2,8 * +16.0 ; alternative fingering
finger 18 = 2,9 * +17.0 ; alternative fingering

finger 19 = 1,1 1,2 * +13.0
finger 20 = 1,2 1,3 * +14.0
finger 21 = 1,3 1,4 * +15.0
finger 22 = 1,4 2,1 * +16.0
finger 23 = 2,1 2,2 * +17.0
finger 24 = 2,2 2,3 * +18.0
finger 25 = 2,3 2,4 * +19.0
finger 26 = 2,4 1,5 * +20.0
finger 27 = 1,5 1,6 * +21.0
finger 28 = 1,6 1,7 * +22.0
finger 29 = 1,7 1,8 * +23.0
finger 30 = 1,8 1,9 * +24.0 ; alternative fingering
finger 31 = 1,8 2,5 * +24.0
finger 32 = 2,5 2,6 * +25.0 ; alternative fingering
finger 33 = 2,6 2,7 * +26.0 ; alternative fingering
finger 34 = 2,7 2,8 * +27.0 ; alternative fingering
finger 35 = 2,8 2,9 * +28.0 ; alternative fingering

finger 36 = 1,1 1,2 1,3 * +25.0
finger 37 = 1,2 1,3 1,4 * +26.0
finger 38 = 1,3 1,4 2,1 * +27.0
finger 39 = 1,4 2,1 2,2 * +28.0
finger 40 = 2,1 2,2 2,3 * +29.0
finger 41 = 2,2 2,3 2,4 * +30.0
finger 42 = 2,3 2,4 1,5 * +31.0
finger 43 = 2,4 1,5 1,6 * +32.0
finger 44 = 1,5 1,6 1,7 * +33.0
finger 45 = 1,6 1,7 1,8 * +34.0
finger 46 = 1,7 1,8 1,9 * +35.0 ; alternative fingering
finger 47 = 1,7 1,8 2,5 * +35.0
finger 48 = 1,8 1,9 2,5 * +36.0 ; alternative fingering
finger 49 = 1,8 2,5 2,6 * +36.0
finger 50 = 1,9 2,5 2,6 * +37.0 ; alternative fingering
finger 51 = 2,5 2,6 2,7 * +37.0
finger 52 = 2,6 2,7 2,8 * +38.0 ; alternative fingering
finger 53 = 2,7 2,8 2,9 * +39.0 ; alternative fingering

finger 54 = 1,1 1,2 1,3 1,4 * +37.0
finger 55 = 1,2 1,3 1,4 2,1 * +38.0
finger 56 = 1,3 1,4 2,1 2,2 * +39.0
finger 57 = 1,4 2,1 2,2 2,3 * +40.0
finger 58 = 2,1 2,2 2,3 2,4 * +41.0
finger 59 = 2,2 2,3 2,4 1,5 * +42.0
finger 60 = 2,3 2,4 1,5 1,6 * +43.0
finger 61 = 2,4 1,5 1,6 1,7 * +44.0
finger 62 = 1,5 1,6 1,7 1,8 * +45.0
finger 63 = 1,6 1,7 1,8 1,9 * +46.0 ; alternative fingering - not working from here
finger 64 = 1,6 1,7 1,8 2,5 * +46.0
finger 65 = 1,7 1,8 1,9 2,5 * +47.0 ; alternative fingering
finger 66 = 1,7 1,8 2,5 2,6 * +47.0
finger 67 = 1,8 1,9 2,5 2,6 * +48.0 ; alternative fingering
finger 68 = 1,8 2,5 2,6 2,7 * +48.0
finger 69 = 1,9 2,5 2,6 2,7 * +49.0 ; alternative fingering
finger 70 = 2,5 2,6 2,7 2,8 * +49.0
finger 71 = 2,6 2,7 2,8 2,9 * +50.0

Would it be possible to include a selectable list of "standard" fingerlings, e.g.: Boehm, much like the selectable list of scales? A "user_fingerings.txt" could be modified for anything outside the standard.