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written by: barnone

I agree that would be super useful.

written by: barnone

Sat, 13 Nov 2010 16:57:19 +0000 GMT

Might as well discuss the up-and-coming stage here, and continue that discussion when we get a release to play with.

Just say the latest Tutorial with John where there was a sneak peek.

My initial reaction....

Bravo! This is really the piece that has been desperately needed from the beginning. It will allow for much more efficient and less frustrating interactions with the setups. This is great news in general.

There was also a mention of adding OSC, which if you know me, you'd know that I have been pushing for this from the beginning. So again this is really good news. I heard some mention of using bonjour for discovery which is a great way to discover OSC endpoints. So I'm glad you are doing it that way.

I was a bit confused by John's description of making all the bits communicate via OSC and also by needing to add things to the OSC protocol. If internally you guys need to do stuff to make this communication work then fine. I would just like to say that when we connect via OSC from the outside world. I hope it is according to the standard protocol. Basically, just need to make sure that other OSC clients have no issue connecting. For example, MAX/MSP, p5OSC java, Lemur, Osculator and others.

One thing I would love to see as a request is the ability to send belcanto fragments to eigenD via UI components. For example, create buttons to execute some basic scripts for me.

All in all this is fantastic news. Can't wait to test it out.

Chris


written by: barnone

Fri, 19 Nov 2010 18:17:39 +0000 GMT

Whoo, stage is awesome guys!

Congrats. This is huge!

This is really a major missing link for usability on stage and in the studio.


written by: steveelbows

Fri, 19 Nov 2010 18:48:47 +0000 GMT

Yes Im just trying stage for the first time right now, looking good :)

Straight away I am able to turn off pitchbend easily by adding a 'roll axis window' from the keyboard pico 1 group and turning it down to 0.

Just messing with things like 'tonic' and 'base note' from kgroup1, and I notice that I cant often get the control to stop in a position that is a whole number, dont have this problem with the octave control as I guess its stepping is set differently?

Am I right in thinking that he iPad app is not available to testers quite yet?


written by: steveelbows

Fri, 19 Nov 2010 18:56:36 +0000 GMT

Other initial thoughts:

It would be great if I could store snapshots of the values that all the controls are currently set to, and then be able to recall the snapshot and other ones with the click of a button (or maybe use the last 2 pico keys to select snapshots once the browser has been retired)

Im not sure if I like the way the create control changes to a size and position tool once you have added a control to the stage. I can understand the decision to make it behave this way, for you would likely want to reposition the control once you have added it, but I think that it slows things down if you are trying to add quite a lot of controls in a short space of time. I would probably prefer it to stay in add mode witht he available agents browser staying open, drop a load of controls onto the stage, and then rearrange them afterwards.

These are not real biggies to me in terms of importance, just throwing them out there. Congratulations on the new direction for EigenD software, I think its going to evolve into something very good indeed.


written by: natcl

Fri, 19 Nov 2010 23:52:37 +0000 GMT

That's really nice ! I'm already controlling EigenD from my iPhone with TouchOSC. That's the beauty of OSC...


written by: natcl

Sat, 20 Nov 2010 00:03:22 +0000 GMT

For the curious who want to try with an iPhone while the official app isn't out, here's the base layout in TouchOSC: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/149476/eigenharp.touchosc

The outgoing port needs to be set to 55551


written by: keyman

Sat, 20 Nov 2010 00:19:40 +0000 GMT

eheh, Thanks natcl !! let's see if we can test the official app soon

keyman


written by: dhjdhj

Sat, 20 Nov 2010 16:13:54 +0000 GMT

OK --- I installed latest version of EigenD (1.3.2-unstable) and invoked Stage.

Contrary to the wiki description about Stage, I get an empty tab --- no master volume control --- no idea what I'm supposed to do next --- I can see/browse available agents but have no idea what to do next.


written by: john

Sat, 20 Nov 2010 17:12:31 +0000 GMT

Hi David

That sounds like a bug to me - you should have a first tab with a big volume control. You can then add tabs and controls to those tabs with the 'create control' tool - select the value you want to control from the Agent browser then drop it on the tab. But if you're not seeing the first tab with the big volume and pan then there's something wrong anyway. Could you send us a bug report while it's running so that we can see what your setup is? This is our first testing release of Stage, so we're expecting a few bugs and it sounds like you might have found one...

Best regards

John


written by: keyman

Sat, 20 Nov 2010 18:06:11 +0000 GMT

Talking about bugs.... I've found one ( no special by any means) , by accident I've "drag and drop" --eigend 1-- and crash.... it happens also with --plumber-- and --ring manager 1-- ( it's empty so not supposed to patch...ehehe)

But I'm really loving it... and slowly see it's potential, in the meantime waiting for the IOS app ( don't see myself sticking the iphone to the ALPHA, but on the ipad.... must be fantastic.

Keyman


written by: dhjdhj

Sat, 20 Nov 2010 20:20:48 +0000 GMT

Yes, I could definitely create a control in a tab (and I made one with a Master Volume) but I don't really understand/know what to do with it. This Stage seems to be focused on configuring the internal agents stuff and I don't understand that stuff sufficiently to be able to do anything. I had hoped I could use Stage to reconfigure the keys to control what data gets sent to the computer but that doesn't seem to be what it's for.


written by: dhjdhj

Sat, 20 Nov 2010 21:16:46 +0000 GMT

The 1.3.2 version produces spurious notes from time to time --- I had to revert to an earlier version. I'm just using MIDI out port 1 into Ableton Live, was jamming a solo to a background that I've been working on for the last week. Spurious notes stopped happening as soon as I went back to earlier version of EigenD


written by: john

Sat, 20 Nov 2010 21:31:38 +0000 GMT

No, that is not what it's for. Its a tool for performance and rehearsal, not system configuration. It gives you real time OSC based control, over a network, of EigenD's internal parameters. There are quite a few of these, not all of which have Stage widgets yet, but all the basic values do.

You can immediately use it to construct control tabs for things like the mixer, an instrument's internal values (such as attack, decay etc) or the metronome tempo control etc. Many of these parameters (called Ports in Eigenese as they can also have performance streams connected to them) have been hard to change up to now, requiring Belcanto commands. Pretty much all the Ports are documented now, here on the Wiki and we'll be working to add to this documentation over the next few months. The reference will also start to appear in the application help system, which is largely empty right now having only gone in last week.

Stage is a work in progress and there will be changes and improvements to it over the lifetime of the 1.3 Unstable series. It provides a framework for us to develop further performance and control tools, which we intend doing. We have lots of ideas for these, and any you guys have we'd love to hear too.

It is not intended for connection management (which is what you seem to be describing), this is what the Workbench tool is intended for. This will not be introduced until the 2.0 series next year.

John


written by: john

Sat, 20 Nov 2010 21:37:17 +0000 GMT

The 1.3 series also has quite few changes to the MIDI system going in, so I'm not surprised you might have odd problems. There will be a whole load more, possibly next week, changes that I think you will appreciate as they give a lot more parameter routing control in both the AU/VST host and hardware MIDI out.

That 'spontaneous MIDi note' bug sounds quite weird, could you please log a bug for us with the bug reporter? It will really help us track it down..

John


written by: john

Sat, 20 Nov 2010 21:53:55 +0000 GMT

Hi Steve

I agree with you, I don't think he 'create' tool modal behaviour is right yet, I think it should stay in add mode. It used to (we changed it last week) but it was irritating as one tended to add the same widget twice all the time, but I think a halfway house where it just cancels the current Port selection once a widget has been dropped would be better.

We've already discussed the value increments on the controls, this needs work and we'll be having a good look at it next week. All Ports do have an increment/decrement value associated with them (that can usually be changed by the player), but its turning out that the increment values one wants when using a key on the instrument (which is what they are used for now with the nudger controls) are not the same as those needed with a GUI, which is no surprise really.

The 'value snapshots' idea is nice, and I'll discuss it with the dev team on Monday.

The IOS release is imminent, Geert has been using it already and reports that it works well. Anyone who wants to participate in the testing of this (we have strictly limited numbers because of the way IOS development works) needs to talk to Aaron in customer services ASAP if they haven't already done so. I have to say, Stage is really neat when wireless. Mark and I have been working on a mounting kit for the Tau and Alpha, to velcro an iPod Touch / iPhone to the instrument, which I think would be neat.

John


written by: dhjdhj

Sat, 20 Nov 2010 22:10:55 +0000 GMT

Yes --- this is what I care about -- I was told a beta was supposed to be available by now and was waiting to be contacted
It is not intended for connection management (which is what you seem to be describing), this is what the Workbench tool is intended for. This will not be introduced until the 2.0 series next year.


I have yet to see a compelling argument for why this aspect of the Eigenharp is important. I know I'm repeating myself (I tend to do that until I get an answer....it drives my wife mad) but I still haven't seen anybody do anything with the Eigenharp environment that couldn't be done just as easily (in fact possibly more easily) with existing software applications responding to the raw data from the physical controller.


It provides a framework for us to develop further performance and control tools, which we intend doing. We have lots of ideas for these, and any you guys have we'd love to hear too.


written by: bl4cksun

Sat, 20 Nov 2010 23:44:59 +0000 GMT

have a suggestion for stage...maybe longer term...

how about adding the ability to map midi control to each of the widgets? Or maybe making an au/vst version that can be sat in live?
Those of us with hardware midi controllers rather than an ipad or iphone could then map the buttons and sliders on the hardware controller to the ones on stage?


written by: john

Sun, 21 Nov 2010 08:05:54 +0000 GMT

Hi David

If we lived in a ubiquitous OSC world you'd have a point, but we do not. Not only do we not have general OSC use, but many of the existing OSC implementations really just ship MIDI over it, with a few higher resolution control signals attached. This is simply not sufficient if one wants to create an instrument that can compete with the Violin, Guitar or Saxophone for emotional expression. And sending this data effectively over existing MIDI is simply not possible.

It is important to remember that OSC is just a network transport definition really - there is not yet a broadly accepted schema for sending highly expressive notes. I can tell you from our internal struggles with this (we use a system not dissimilar to OSC for our own inter-agent transport, hence my comments previously about a migration to OSC from this before we open it out), it is not trivial to get right. MIDI makes some powerful simplifying assumptions about what constitutes a musical note. These assumptions make writing software for it a whole lot easier, but those same assumptions also cripple it in many important ways. And we have now seen compelling evidence that applications written around MIDI are really going to struggle to migrate to a richer event model, one that can accommodate true expression. The absence of a single OSC DAW illustrates this point - even a 'MIDI over OSC' one. They will manage it, but it's going to take a while.

If you are happy with the level of expression offered by MIDI than all of this is of course irrelevant. Personally I am not, and the main reason that EigenD does all the things it does is because it does these things with very high data rates, with a smarter idea of what a note is. This turns out to be quite hard, and as far as I am aware nothing else quite does what it does as yet, with the possible exception of MAX/MSP, which is now also doing OSC.

You say that you can't see why we can't just send the raw data from the controller to existing applications. This is quite simple. There is not one application than can use it effectively. If we send the full data steam from our keys to any of the existing DAW's out there they just fall over, even with small numbers of keys down an at the reduced resolution MIDI offers. Our MIDI gateway throws a LOT of data away. Things are a little better when we host the AU/VST but we have to throw data away even then. It is possible to play expressively using MIDI, but not as expressively as one should be able to by a long way.

I have lost count of the times over the last few years where I have wished for a world in which all software instruments and DAW's were able to do this. It would have saved us a huge amount of work. But sadly, it is not the case. But we can hope - I think that OSC does potentially represent a new beginning. It does need some things that it doesn't have right now, like idiomatic bi-directionality, decent discovery to enable zero conf abilities, a better canonical note model than MIDI, but all these things potentially represent backwards compatible idioms within the current protocol (not incompatible extensions, which is what I think you were worried about), which is very promising.

Sorry, long ramble. I must have answered this question a hundred times now - many people have asked it and as yet I have yet to hear a compelling reason why we're on the wrong track with where we're headed.

John


written by: john

Sun, 21 Nov 2010 08:20:31 +0000 GMT

Hi bl4cksun

That is a neat idea. We actually have an ambition to make it possible to connect general EigenD signals to the controls (so that one would be able to connect an instrument key to one, or an LFO, for example) which would make that immediately possible, as our MIDI in gateway can already translate MIDI continuous controls into EigenD signals. We're not likely to get to this in the 1.3 series, but I'll keep you posted.

John


written by: dhjdhj

Sun, 21 Nov 2010 13:16:41 +0000 GMT

John, I totally appreciate what you're saying and I don't disagree with you from a long term point of view.

However, consider that this may be a case of "perfect is the enemy of good enough".

My sense is that there is a very significant subset of people who want more expressive control over their existing often very sophisticated environment. You're absolutely right that you can't be as expressive as you would like due to the restrictions of MIDI but you CAN be a hell of a lot more expressive with it NOW than with a keyboard or other alternate controllers currently available. In other words, in theory you're correct but in practice it often just doesn't matter.

So by RAW data, if you just sending MIDI note on events, CC events and/or pitch bend events in response to various movements, it's already enough to do a LOT.

That fact in itself is enough to be very exciting.

When I route the Alpha into Kontakt and perform Sax solos with it (for example), the results are just awesomely playable. I've used it with several physical modelling plugins as well and love the results --- and that's using just velocity, aftertouch and pitchbend. I have had very little time to work with the alpha recently due to other committments but I can tell you that I have gotten to the point where I will just sit down and jam for hours with it (using sax, flute, guitar and other sounds) for sheer relaxation and it is just wonderful.


I'm an experienced keyboard player (being playing for nearly 50 years now) but the Alpha definitely represents a significant step forward JUST as a controller for my current rig and the more I can just integrate it (with easier configuration), the better.

I bet a lot of people feel the same way.



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