written by: carvingCode
It's clear, at least to me, that there needs to be a way to distinguish between posts/responses for MacOS and those for WindowsOS versions of EigenD. None of the (recent) responses on this topic apply to WindowsOS even though MIDI problems exist in this OS.I've reported this before in an earlier version but whether it went and has now come back again or has always been there, using MIDI out, various note keys also trigger octave shift and metronome start / stop. It was acknowledged as a bug previously. Using latest unstable release, Factory Alpha 1, MIDI out 1 and channel 1.
Regards, Nick
Hi Nick
If you're referring to the MIDI input, with notes triggering things, then this is not a bug. The MIDI in is attached to a Belcanto talker, with commands to do some useful things. I use it to let a pedalboard control scale and tonic while playing. There's an implementation chart on the Wiki here.
If you don't mind grappling with the commander you can redefine these yourself.
John
I've seen this before with my Alpha, it's as if there are several splits active at once, I.e. There is another keygroup under your fingers that you can't see, but it's control functions still trigger. Lowdene, foes the metronome start when you hit a key in course 1 only ? That's where the metronome key is in the drummer controls, which might be on this hidden keygroup. What happens if you start the metronome and then play midi, do the drum loops toggle on and off when playing on courses 2-5 ?
Well this has started happening with my Pico, with latest unstable release. If its not a bug then something has still changed with the latest software version - perhaps the midi input in EigenD is defaulting to the virtual midi output, or in some other way internally the midi output signals are going back into EigenD.
I reported the bug about a week ago. It is a MIDI Out problem. The behavior in my case was that the metronone was auto-started from the wrong key. Also, pressing the same key could trigger other notes, most always the note directly above or below (semitone) in sequence.
On the Mac, virtual MIDI ports are 'built in' to MIDI subsystem, so EigenD can filter out its own outputs.
On Windows, you need to use LoopBe or something like that (LoopBe's what I'm using) but EigenD can't distinguish it's own ports. It might then default to using the LoopBe output as its default output. Trouble is, if you've only got that one output, you can't choose another.
(BTW, does anyone else get a 'TBIA' popup on login after installing LoopBe?)
In the upcoming release, I've added Null outputs and inputs, and am defaulting the output to the Null output.
I haven't had a chance to investigate the reports that the actual loopback behaviour is wrong, so far it seems to work fine for me, the various MIDI talker keys seem to do the right things. I'll investigate that further once I've got this next lot of changes out of the door.
New release will be quite soon; it's being held up by a bug on the Mac side; If it drags on too much longer, I'll release the Windows build anyway.
jim
Eigenlabs
>> BTW, does anyone else get a 'TBIA' popup on login after installing LoopBe?
Yes.
John,
Sorry for the delay in responding. No, this is definitely not desirable behaviour. In fact it makes the instrument unusable as a MIDI controller. Let me explain a bit more. I don't have my Alpha with me, so I can't tell which specific MIDI notes have the problem but, just for example, you want to play C3 in your melody, however C3 also surprisingly toggles the metronome on and off! Obviously not what you want to happen! You play D4, and as well as playing the note, it shifts all the notes up one octave. It isn't actually these notes, C3 and D4, I've just used them for illustration. I don't have my instrument with me so I can't sit down and do the forensics. In my bug report a few months ago, I did identify the MIDI note that toggles the metronome. This behaviour is most easily observed if you use the chromatic scale, since you are then bound to have the offending notes represented in the courses.
As I said I observed the problem with the metronome toggle a few months ago and reported it and I seem to remember it being acknowledged as a bug. Frankly, I haven't used the instrument as a MIDI controller since, so I don't know whether the problem went away and came back again or whether it's always been there.
I only realised that some notes were also toggling the octave this weekend when I couldn't work out why in the middle of playing something the notes suddenly shifted an octave up.
So, in conclusion, when using MIDI out, and playing the note keys, some notes also undesirably activate the metronome and octave switches. I really can't believe that this is intentional. Could I somehow unintentionally have assigned note keys to metronome and octave switching functions if such a thing is possible? Seems unlikely as I started with a fresh install of Factory Set-up 1.
Regards, Nick
Hi Nick
This seems very likely to be a loopback behaviour of some sort (see Jim's post above). The MIDI input responding to incoming notes by doing things isn't a bug, it is used by a number of people (myself included) to do useful work, but there must be something going on that is causing the outgoing MIDI in your setup to loop back to the input. I remember you're on Mac (is that right?) so you really ought not be having any trouble with this unless you have somehow routed MIDI back from the out to the in in some way or there is a loopback bug of some sort (always possible and I think Jim's going to have look). How are you routing your MIDI? Are you connecting both directions to a DAW?
John
Hi John
I didn't follow Jim's post, but I see in principle what you're saying, I'd forgotten MIDI-in could be used for control, and it seems very likely it's a loop. Yes, I'm using a Mac. This weekend I noted it happened both when I was controlling an external synth (Little Phatty) and a software synth in a DAW (Logic / Trillian).
I guess I could try and see what's happening with MIDI Monitor but won't be able to until next weekend.
Regards, Nick
Should also have said, but it's probably obvious from the above, that I am only overtly routing MIDI out.
Regards, Nick
OK I still have this problem with the pico, which was making midi out unusable because the metronome kept triggering. I checked and I have this problem with both 1.2.3 and 1.2.4
I then tried 1.1.23 and it didnt have the problem. And by doing some exploration I have worked out what is causing the problem.
On 1.1.2.3 and earlier, when I run EigenD and then use the Browser to look at the midi input and output ports, all of my midi interfaces have red lights next to them, so Im assuming that by default none are enabled and its just using the bult in virtual eigendmidi interface.
On 1.2.3 and 1.2.4, if I browse midi inputs & outputs after loading EigenD then I see that by default it has enabled the first midi output my computer has, and the first midi input (ie there are green lights next to these). In my case I have some IAC midi buses, and this unstable EigenD is defaulting to use the same IAC bus for both input and output, causing the undesired loopback behaviour. If I change the output or input to a different interface,the problem goes away.
So yay, I can work round this for now, but I wonder if you plan to change this back to the old behaviour at some point to save people unknowingly ending up with this problem?
Jim -
Have you looked into Propellerheads Rewire method as a way to connect EigenD with external music apps? It's used by some popular software and is an open system.
Randy
Steve
Thanks for your post. I think that must explain it and I agree it's not at all a good idea for this to be the default. Certainly confused the hell out of me! I'll check that this is the cause of my loopback when I get home back at the weekend, but I'll put money on it that it is.
Jim, minor point on the latest unstable: it doesn't save the selected audio interface, so this has to be selected each time it's launched.
Nick
I've put up release 1.2.5 at last.
Now there's an explicit 'None' MIDI device, which is selected by default, so you won't get inadvertent loopbacks, either with something like LoopBe on windows or IAC on the Mac.
On a Mac, you'll notice Eigenlabs MIDI devices. These are the virtual ins and outs that EigenD creates. They used to be hidden.
There's also a new UI window (under the window menu) which lets you setup the audio interface. It's much easier to stab around and find a working setup.
And it saves the audio device in use.
We've also fixed quite a few annoying stability problems, so I'm interested if any more 'Pure Virtual' messages come up.
jim
Eigenlabs
We did look at Rewire quite a long time ago.
It's quite a complicated system to implement. Quite honestly, I think that a more general approach would be to implement a VST/AU that remotes from an EigenD output. Either way, it's MIDI based though so you still have all those problems.
OSC will definitely be the way forward for this stuff.
jim
Eigenlabs
Yay for OSC !
Jim - A nit: The release version in pdf doc says '1.2.4'.
Well, I lost my money on that, it doesn't solve the problem.
Here are my observations:
- No problem with 1.1.24 stable
- With 1.2.5 problem still occurs if I select 'Eigenlabs 1' out and 'null' in (haven't tried Eigenlabs 2 out)
- I have only EigenD open on the computer
- No instruments or DAWs or any other software open (I'm just listening for the metronome toggle)
- Clean install of 1.2.5 and Factory 1 set-up
-Reproducible every time
Obviously I'll go back to using the latest stable if I want MIDI out since for me the latest unstable is unusable for this purpose.
Would appreciate any insight anyone has to offer.
Nick
You should select None in the MIDI output.
By Choosing an Eigenlabs device you are telling the output to send to the Eigenlabs MIDI input, which is configured as a talker. In the same way, if you choose an Eigenlabs device as an input, you are telling the input to listen to a MIDI output from EigenD.
The MIDI input always listens to the soft MIDI input it creates. It can also listen to some other device selected by the browser. The Outputs work the same way. The Eigenlabs inputs and outputs aren't really meant to be selected from
within EigenD; they are just there to avoid having to create an IAC bus to communicate via MIDI with other bits of software.
When you browse MIDI outputs, you are seeing all the MIDI devices to which you can output, including the one that sends to the MIDI input.
jim
Eigenlabs
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