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Pico: Strange (noob) problems

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written by: motic

Thanks Randy, most appreciated ;-)

written by: motic

Mon, 2 Jul 2012 12:01:51 +0100 BST

Hi to all, for starters :)... this is my first post and ... grammar glitches aside, don't shoot @ 1'st sight, please...

Bought a new TAU about 2 months ago and after installed E'D 1.4.12 on a win7 64 (I7 860 - 16G ram) computer and managed surviving the beginners problems, mostly with help of the 2.0.48-exp version (Pro @ the moment) achieved to establish some kind of stable play environment, which is 'almost' satisfying, for the moment (not many sound glitches by playing etc...).
Wanted something smaller by the hand while further testing the midi possibilities of the instrument and (learning) the software, also trying to find a way to record with a DAW, bought a second hand Pico and.... there are all the problems again, sound glitches with VST'S, sound stops intermittently while processor going wild.
Tried 1.4.12 (btw, third key on the left side give's me sometimes a max velocity by barely touching it... problem gone in the following >>...) and 2.0.48-exp without success while if i plug the TAU in, still plays without any (..big..) problem as before.
Manged to start 4 vst's (Omnisphere, Reaktor 5, Trillian, StylusRMX) without having a glitch but with only one and the Pico.... no go, almost impossible to play the thing in a normal manner.. after 6 or 7 notes sound stops and continue after a second or so.
My Komplete 6 is doing his job nicely (to my taste) and even sends midi out like it should to my Kronos.
Searched the forum and Wiki till almost had sore fingers...
Those are best many things @ once, but... please, can anyone help or point me in a good direction??
thanks in advance and ... reminding!, i'm new, .. also at software instruments and DAW's but fairly capable of keeping my computer up and running like it should.
Just trying to enjoy the new instruments... and fighting the urge of giving up, being used to play just the hardware (synth, guitar, Chapman Stick, etc)
Moreno


written by: geert

Mon, 2 Jul 2012 12:11:42 +0100 BST

Hi Moreno,

Sorry to hear that it's not a smooth ride for you. Audio glitches on a Windows 7 operating system are almost always related to the drivers of your audio interface. Do you use the built-in audio output of your computer or do you use another sound card? If possible, try to find the latest ASIO drivers of your audio interface, they almost always perform better than the Direct X version. If you can't find a dedicated ASIO driver for your audio interface, you can give ASIO 4 All a try. Finally, some audio interfaces are very sensitive to the buffer size you set up in the EigenD audio settings, you might try experimenting with different setting to find a good compromise between low latency and stable audio (the higher, the more latency you'll get).

Do let us know how if this helped you. Getting a stable live performance setup on Windows can take some effort and experimentation, unrelated to EigenD and the Eigenharp. However, with the amount of data and processing power that EigenD requires, some issues can become much more noticeable then with simple MIDI.

Best regards,

Geert
Eigenlabs Software Team


written by: motic

Mon, 2 Jul 2012 16:57:50 +0100 BST

Hi Geert, thanks for the quick response.
As i tried to mention, i'm using Komplete Audio 6 (Komplete Audio 6)(and i forgot to type Audio in it) with his own driver which is capable of low latency and does the job better than the standard directx which has an audible small higher latency.
No live perfomance level needed here, cause i'm no pro and play only for fun ;) and the problems raise only with the Pico, which gives me the idea (probably wrong..) that the interface (hardware) in the Pico could be somehow (ok, not as advanced as in the TAU with base station understandably) inferior and forcing the computer to optimize for that; i think a 4 core processor like the I7 860 should be enough to sustain EigenD software and remarkably it does well enough with the TAU attached, but the little one is another case.
Tried with the same usb port in the back where the TAU normally goes in to see if the front usb port were the problem but nope, as soon as i play multiple notes at once or following each other, sound starts to crack and eventually hangs for a sec.


written by: carvingCode

Mon, 2 Jul 2012 19:14:08 +0100 BST

The Pico uses a lot more USB bandwidth than the Tau. I'm not familiar with your audio interface, but if it also is USB there could be some conflict. For example, I could not use M-AUDIO Fast Track Pro along with the Pico on a Windows7 PC due to USB limitations.

As Geert mentioned, you really do need to use a good ASIO driver.

Randy


written by: motic

Mon, 2 Jul 2012 22:00:24 +0100 BST

Thanks Randy, this probably has to be the bottle neck cause the "NI Komplete Audio 6" is USB powered and, i must say, it does his job very well with his own low latency drivers which outstand the normal ASIO and ASIO4ALL, all around...it's a no problem interface with best good sound quality which i've used with dj hardware, also usb powered, without any problem and is a keeper.
As you understand, not having problems with the TAU, if i don't find a possibility to use it, i'll probably have to get rid of the Pico again.
Looking around a couple of months already, deciding which (and if) to buy, didn't see any trace of that sort of problems in forums and on youtube so, chose first for the TAU, cause the price of the Alpha is way out of my league, and seeing that working ok, went for the Pico without any preservation, actually...
Well, the Macbook Air does some lil' better job with the same hardware cause is CoreAudio compatible, but will have to adjust something here and there (am more a windows than Mac user) to straight it out.
Guys, what do you use as 'good' sound card that works with Pico's?



written by: keyman

Tue, 3 Jul 2012 01:56:11 +0100 BST

I always used Firewire for audio interfaces (everything else usb). Probably would "cure" your Pico setup.


written by: geert

Tue, 3 Jul 2012 07:40:53 +0100 BST

@motic, the USB bandwidth really depends on how your machine is built. Usually there are several internal USB busses that are wired to different USB ports on the outside of your machine. It might be worth experimenting plugging the Komplete Audio 6 and the Pico into different USB ports, possibly trying all combinations.

Another option is to use your built-in audio if you can find suitable ASIO drivers. This is connected straight to the motherboard, without USB or Firewire in between. For playing the Eigenharp, many built-in audio cards are good enough in terms of sound quality and usually the latency is actually lower. If it supports digital audio out, you might even be able to connect it to your audio interface and integrate it with the rest.

Finally, did you experiment with different buffer sizes on your Komplete Audio? Sometimes even smaller ones work better for certain devices. We've encountered some audio devices that don't even work at all at some buffer sizes that are exposed as being supported. Maybe it's simply the default buffer size of 512 samples that your audio interface doesn't like?

Geert
Eigenlabs Software Team


written by: motic

Tue, 3 Jul 2012 23:09:37 +0100 BST

Hi Geert, you and keyman are probably both right.
Thanks in front to both for time and effort.
Tried ASIO4ALL on my sound card and routed the output through the line in of the KA6 and after tweaking here and there it was at some level better than before but not quite as the TAU, which i can play fairly without many glitches direct through the KA6 driver and hardware.
Computer knowledge is sparse when coming to hardware compatibility and that's what i'm encountering now; probably with something like an M-Audio Firepro 610 or some equivalent hybrid could be also a solution but at the cost of at least 300 bucks more and not having comparing material would be a shot in the wild.
A friend @ the store asked me 'why', cause he knew i have the KA6, cause latest, he said, every pro and non pro manufacturer is starting to implement only USB or eventually hybrids for some time now.
I'll experiment further with the settings but not precisely knowing what i'm doing, except that more samples mean more latency but would larger usb buffers works pro or con..., have no idea actually, it's gonna be a wild ride for sure.
Feels like... buying a car and having to study the whole fabrication before you can ride it and with the price of those instruments... feels just like it, i tell you!
Somewhere i'm glad i didn't encounter this with the TAU or i probably went nuts from the start, but sure would be nice to know before buying and lucky for Eigenlabs, i didn't buy the Pico first or probably would (even if erroneous all the same) have never bought the TAU, which i must say, i like more and more every week.
Not willing to sound too negative, 'cause not everybody experiences the same; i'm gonna tweak and tweak and tweak ... till i drop and relieve you of this burden which is more mine than yours.
Geert, keep up the good work @ the EigenD and guys, sorry for the intrusion, i'll go back again to 'more reading than posting' as it was before this, 'cause still have too much to learn.

Moreno


written by: keyman

Wed, 4 Jul 2012 02:21:20 +0100 BST

Hi Moreno,

I do like your spirit !! tweak and tweak!!
I have have my share of wild stories from ATARI computers to big digital sound desks, lightning desks and gadgets and more gadgets...
Man made contraptions... that we use and abuse to go beyond.

No matter what I love them; and please Post! and ask around, you are not intruding at all, we all learn with each other, the Eigenharps are in it's baby steps yet!

Don't loose sight of your Tau and Pico (play the "instruments") maybe in the future give a wink of an eye to an Apple , mac osx and a more robust firewire audio interface.


written by: geert

Wed, 4 Jul 2012 08:17:25 +0100 BST

Hi Moreno,

Sadly, the world of audio on Windows can require quite some experimentation before everything is working smoothly. Your friend is right, USB interfaces are much more common nowadays, but they don't come without their share of problems. Certainly the more affordable ones, this is also true for computers.

Before considering something else, please try these steps:

  • make sure you're using the latest version of EigenD, you mention 2.0.48-experimental above, the 2.0 line is at 2.0.56-testing now
  • try different buffer sizes in EigenD, not necessarily larger ones, it's very possible that KA6 doesn't actually work right with some of the buffer sizes it advertises, we've seen that before
  • try different USB ports in various combinations, unplug anything else besides your Pico and KA6
  • make sure you're using the USB cable that the Pico shipped with, other cables can create problems
  • if you are using the original Pico USB cable already, check if you can find another USB cable that looks similar in thickness and quality and try that instead, while it's very uncommon, the USB cable might have have a problem

    Finally, please launch EigenD with your Pico connected, play on it until you hear the crackles and pauses you experience. Then go to the File menu of EigenD, select 'Report Bug', fill in your details and press Send. This might give us additional information to might help pinpoint the problem on your system.

    Hope this helps,

    Geert


written by: motic

Wed, 4 Jul 2012 17:31:16 +0100 BST

I'm not giving up right yet, keyman :) and i know what your saying...
Btw have a Macbook Air but has only usb on board ;)

@Geert, 2.0.56-testing loaded and report sent (2 of them) first with asio4all and second with ka6 driver, only forgot to fill the info in the first one... sorry.
I'll try all 8 ports and another cable later on, at the moment is all original what i'm using.
Had some quicker lockups with the tau with this version and 2.0.48-exp worked smoother so i used that one... 1.42 stable gave me even more problems and switching to this one was a relief... i could finally play :)!, then later installed the pro.


written by: motic

Fri, 6 Jul 2012 21:41:51 +0100 BST

Last update: YES! @Geert, after plugging in and out like a 'crazy man pluggin', found 2 ports with some broader bandwidth on the back, never used cause positioned a little odd but there all the same.
Plugged in the KA6 and the Pico adjacent to each other and playing trough the KA6 drivers like nothing ever happened :>)...
Thank you for the tips Geert and every one else!!!... now i can start enjoying the little thing....
END of Panic lol ;)

Moreno

edit: oh, yeah, forgot to mention, using EigenD 2.0.56-testing!
I'll give it another try with the TAU too, but most important is that 'everything is playable now' :D


written by: carvingCode

Fri, 6 Jul 2012 18:51:04 +0100 BST

@motic - Another Tau and Pico owner! We're a slowly growing group.

Randy


written by: motic

Sun, 8 Jul 2012 02:51:59 +0100 BST



edit: Club TAUPICO Song


written by: motic

Sun, 8 Jul 2012 22:25:23 +0100 BST

For people who may have missed i've edited the picture but also added a link of a simple first recording with the Pico below it... for people who hasn't missed... no problem, i know is not much special ;)
Happy Harpin' :)


written by: carvingCode

Mon, 9 Jul 2012 01:17:40 +0100 BST

Motic - Great work on both he pict and the tune!


written by: motic

Mon, 9 Jul 2012 19:29:07 +0100 BST

Thanks Randy, most appreciated ;-)



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